“A lot of times, health care comes with a job.”

Sen. John Thune (R-S.D.), in an interview with KOTA on May 30, 2025

Millions of people are expected to lose access to Medicaid and Affordable Care Act marketplace health insurance plans if federal lawmakers approve the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, President Donald Trump’s domestic policy package, which is now moving through the Senate.

Senate Majority Leader John Thune discussed health care and the pending legislation in an interview with KOTA, a South Dakota TV station. But he focused on a different kind of health insurance — employer-sponsored insurance.

“A lot of times, health care comes with a job,” Thune said.

Thune’s comments in the interview were made in the context of highlighting part of the GOP’s economic policy objective. “Creating those better-paying jobs that come with benefits is ultimately the goal here,” he said.

KFF Health News reached out to Thune’s office to find out the basis for this comment. His communications director, Ryan Wrasse, responded by reiterating Thune’s message: “Getting a job has the potential to lead a worker to acquiring health care.”

Paul Fronstin, director of health benefits research at the Employee Benefit Research Institute, said Thune’s comment may also be alluding to discussions surrounding Medicaid work requirements. The One Big Beautiful Bill Act would let nondisabled adults enroll in Medicaid only if they prove they’re volunteering, working, or searching or training for work.

Medicaid, funded by the federal government and states, is the country’s main health insurance program for people with low incomes. Some people with disabilities also qualify.

Some Republicans have built on the jobs talking point in defending the Medicaid cuts and work requirements. Sen. James Lankford (R-Okla.), for instance, told CNBC the bill isn’t about “kicking people off Medicaid. It’s transitioning from Medicaid to employer-provided health care.”

But the health policy experts we checked with made clear that getting a job isn’t a guarantee for getting work-sponsored insurance.

Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance: The Basics

These experts said most jobs do offer health insurance. But they also said the link between employment and work-based coverage is not always straightforward.

“When I see this statement, I’m like, ‘I’ve got so much more to say about this.’ But I’m not arguing with the statement,” Fronstin said.

Matthew Rae, an associate director focused on researching private insurance at KFF, a health information nonprofit that includes KFF Health News, also weighed in.

“Employer-sponsored coverage remains the bedrock of how people get health insurance in the United States,” Rae said. “I would say that getting a job is not a guarantee you’re going to have health insurance. It just increases your chances of getting it.”

About 60% of Americans younger than 65 receive health insurance through their job or as the spouse, child, or other dependent of someone insured through their work, according to 2023 KFF data.

Among workers ages 18 to 64 who were eligible but didn’t sign up for their workplace insurance, 28% said the reason they decided not to enroll was that the plans were too expensive, 2023 KFF data showed.

Most of these workers found health insurance elsewhere, such as through a relative’s workplace plan. But a small percentage of eligible employees, 3.7%, were uninsured.

Health insurance has been “the most valued benefit in the workplace” since businesses began offering it to recruit employees in a tight labor market during World War II, Fronstin said.

Federal law also encourages companies to offer plans. Under the Affordable Care Act, employers with 50 or more full-time workers are penalized if they don’t offer most employees insurance that the federal government considers affordable.

As of last year, 54% of companies offered health insurance to at least some employees, according to KFF.

But that’s not the main way the ACA helped lower the rate of people without health insurance, said Melissa Thomasson, a professor at Miami University in Ohio who specializes in the economic history of health insurance. “Nearly all of that” change, she said, came from the ACA creating private marketplace plans and allowing states to expand Medicaid eligibility.

Health policy analysts say the One Big Beautiful Bill would make it more difficult for people to qualify or afford marketplace plans, with proposals that would increase paperwork, shorten enrollment periods, and allow enhanced tax credits to fizzle out. Thomasson also noted that political rhetoric surrounding jobs and health insurance doesn’t always align.

“We often talk about small businesses being the engine of job creation,” but those are the businesses that often can’t afford to offer workplace insurance, she said.

So Who Isn’t Insured Through Workplace Insurance?

The most obvious category of people who don’t have workplace insurance are those who don’t have a job. This group includes children and retirees, people searching for work, people who choose not to work, and those who can’t work, because of a disability or illness.

Another group without employer-provided insurance is the 25% of people ages 18 to 64 who have a job but are unable to obtain such insurance, according to 2023 data from KFF.

Some of these people work for companies that don’t offer health insurance. These employers tend to be small businesses or part of certain industries, such as farming and construction.

Others are part-time, temporary, or seasonal workers at companies that offer health insurance only to full-time employees. Workers with low incomes are significantly less likely than those with higher incomes to be eligible for workplace insurance, according to 2023 KFF data.

People who aren’t employed or don’t get insurance through their job can get coverage in other ways. Some are insured through a relative’s workplace plan, while others purchase plans and may qualify for subsidies on the ACA marketplace.

Others get insurance through Medicaid or Medicare, the federal health insurance program for people 65 or older and some people with disabilities.

Cost and Quality — And Therefore Access to Care — Vary

Just because someone has health insurance doesn’t mean they’ll get the health care they need. People may skip or delay care if their plans are unaffordable or if they limit in-network providers.

“Health benefits come in all shapes and sizes,” Fronstin said. “Some employers offer very generous benefits, and others less so.”

KFF data shows that premiums and enrollees’ cost-sharing expenses grew faster than wages from 2008 to 2018 but have slowed in recent years.

Whether workplace insurance is affordable significantly varies by income. According to 2020 KFF data, lower-income families insured through a full-time worker spent, on average, 10.4% of their income on premiums and out-of-pocket costs. That’s more than twice the rate when looking at families across all incomes.

Our Ruling

Thune said, “A lot of times, health care comes with a job.”

This statement is partially accurate. Most workers in the U.S. get health coverage through work. But it glosses over aspects of our nation’s job-based health insurance system — such as how costs and coverage, especially for those with lower incomes, can make an employer plan out of reach even if it is available.

Bottom line: Not all jobs provide health insurance or offer plans to all their workers. When they do, cost and quality vary widely — making Thune’s statement an oversimplification.

We rate this statement Half True.

Sources

KOTA interview with Sen. John Thune, May 30, 2025.

CNBC interview with Sen. James Lankford, June 5, 2025.

KFF, “2024 Employer Health Benefits Survey,” Oct. 9, 2024.

KFF, “Employer Responsibility Under the Affordable Care Act,” Feb. 29, 2024.

KFF, “Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance 101,” May 28, 2024.

Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker, “What Are the Recent Trends in Employer-Based Health Coverage?” Dec. 22, 2023.

Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker, “How Affordability of Employer Coverage Varies by Family Income,”March 10, 2022.

Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker, “Tracking the Rise in Premium Contributions and Cost-Sharing for Families With Large Employer Coverage,” Aug. 14, 2019.

Manhattan Institute, “Put Employees in Control of Health Insurance with ‘Worker’s Choice ICHRA,’” May 22, 2025.

Brookings, “Uninsurance Rates Have Fallen Significantly Following the Affordable Care Act,” July 22, 2024.

Harvard Business Review, “Why Do Employers Provide Health Care in the First Place?” March 15, 2019.

Congressional Budget Office letter on the One Big Beautiful Bill Act increasing the number of uninsured people, June 4, 2025.

Phone interview with Paul Fronstin, director of health benefits research at the Employee Benefit Research Institute and a member of the Commonwealth Fund’s National Task Force on the Future Role of Employers in the U.S. Health System, June 6, 2025. 

Phone interview with Melissa Thomasson, professor and health economist at Miami University, June 6, 2025.

Phone interview with Maanasa Kona, associate research professor at the Center on Health Insurance Reforms at Georgetown University, June 6, 2025. 

Phone interview with Matthew Rae, associate director for the Health Care Marketplace Program at KFF, June 10, 2025. 

Phone interview with Sally Pipes, president and CEO of the Pacific Research Institute, June 11, 2025.

Email correspondence with Ryan Wrasse, communications director for Sen. John Thune, June 10, 2025.

KFF Health News, “Some Employers Test Arrangement To Give Workers Allowance for Coverage,” Oct. 2, 2024.

KFF Health News, “Trump’s ‘One Big Beautiful Bill’ Continues Assault on Obamacare,” June 3, 2025.

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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As fired and retired scientists rallied outside in the Atlanta heat, an advisory panel that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. handpicked to replace experts he’d fired earlier met inside the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s headquarters to plan a more skeptical vaccine future.

The new members of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices began their tenure Wednesday by shifting the posture of the 60-year-old panel from support for vaccine advancement to doubt about the safety and efficacy of well-established and widely administered inoculations.

Their discussions and votes this week paled in significance, however, in comparison with Health and Human Services Secretary Kennedy’s announcement Tuesday that he would withdraw a $1.2 billion U.S. commitment to global immunization.

That decision will kill children in the world’s poorest countries, critics said.

The new ACIP, meanwhile, recommended that newborn Americans get a newly licensed shot to protect them against a respiratory virus. The panel also urged doctors to stop administering influenza vaccine that contains a mercury-based preservative called thimerosal. That decision, in keeping with Kennedy’s disproven claim that thimerosal helped cause an autism epidemic, will have relatively little effect, since only about 4% of flu vaccines currently contain the preservative.

More worrying to vaccine advocates, the committee’s plans to review the government’s childhood vaccine schedule could undermine long-accepted consensus and public confidence, since at least three of the seven committee members have been outspoken opponents of current vaccines. The federal government is legally bound by ACIP’s decisions to provide vaccines it recommends to lower-income children and other groups, and states also follow ACIP’s advice.

Former Harvard University epidemiologist Martin Kulldorff, ACIP’s new chair, set the tone in his opening remarks. “Secretary Kennedy has given this committee a clear mandate to use evidence-based medicine when making vaccination recommendations, and that’s what we will do,” he said.

He added, “There are no wrong questions,” and he announced that a new working group would investigate whether children and adolescents are getting too many vaccines. Another will consider whether to continue ACIP’s 34-year-old recommendation of a birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine, a practice that has dramatically reduced liver disease.

Kulldorff, a covid-19 contrarian and biostatistician who said he was fired by Harvard for refusing a covid vaccination after suffering a severe case of the disease, said the reputations of science and public health have fallen to all-time lows. But scientists and public health officials disagree on who’s to blame.

The biggest cause is “fearmongering and pseudoscience that has overtaken our country,” Caroline Brown, a pediatrician outside Winston-Salem, North Carolina, said during the remote public comment session. She noted that her state’s first measles case of the year was reported this week, panicking many of the families she treats.

Measles was declared eliminated in the United States 25 years ago. It “is back now because of declining rates of vaccination fueled by misinformation that is not only allowed but amplified by some of you sitting on this very committee,” Brown said.

The American Academy of Pediatrics declined to send official liaisons to the meeting and announced on Thursday that it would continue to publish “its own evidence-based recommendations and schedules” for vaccines, blasting Kennedy’s panel.

“What we heard in this meeting was really a false narrative that the current vaccine policies are flawed and that they need fixing,” Sean O’Leary, a physician who chairs the AAP Committee on Infectious Diseases, said in a statement. “That’s completely false. These policies have saved millions of lives, trillions of dollars.”

The CDC’s immunization safety office has conducted studies of the entire vaccine schedule and found no harms, although a 2023 study indicated a possible link between aluminum salts used in some shots and asthma.

Within the CDC conference room, there was a striking contrast between ACIP members and the CDC officials who briefed the panel. While the CDC scientists presented studies showing the safety and value of covid and RSV (respiratory syncytial virus) vaccines, for example, many of the panel members expressed skepticism.

Biochemist Robert Malone and Massachusetts Institute of Technology management professor Retsef Levi — two panelists who have called for banning the mRNA technology used for covid vaccines — were frequently dismissive of the CDC analysis and data.

Malone, Levi, and Vicky Pebsworth — a longtime foe of school vaccination requirements — suggested hidden harms such as “hot lots” of dangerous shots, residual spike protein in the blood from mRNA shots, and inadequate vaccine safety monitoring.

CDC scientists rebutted most of the critiques. But final recommendations on policy will be made by the committee.

Standing along a busy suburban thoroughfare outside the CDC’s headquarters in Atlanta as the meeting rolled on, people critical of the new ACIP were dressed in costumes representing vaccine-preventable diseases — measles, HPV, chickenpox. A small cadre carried balloon letters spelling “R-E-S-T-O-R-E A-C-I-P.” One held a leg splint, commonly used to stabilize the limbs of people with polio, a disease driven to near-extinction by vaccination. Many drivers honked in support as they drove by.

Casey Boudreau, who recently retired from a career working on vaccine-preventable diseases at the CDC, said she was upset by Kennedy’s insistence that the verdict was still out on the safety of some vaccines and by his calls for them to be studied further.

“You’re focusing on reinventing the wheel,” she said. “Do we need to go back and test air bags again? Or do we know they work?”

Tony Fiore, who served as a liaison to ACIP during some of his time at the CDC before retiring, said he was “greatly concerned” that the committee’s words and actions would “reduce the confidence people have in vaccines and hurt our immunization programs.”

HHS spokesperson Andrew Nixon, who hovered briefly at the edge of rally as people began to gather, dismissed it as “nothing more than a dog and pony show with a lack of serious credibility, evidenced by their Halloween costumes,” in a statement later sent by text message.

At the meeting inside, Kennedy and his agenda loomed in the background, especially after the HHS secretary announced the abandonment of Gavi, an international group that estimates its vaccine programs have saved 18 million lives, mostly in the world’s poorest countries.

The United States has provided 13% of Gavi’s budget, and President Joe Biden had promised an additional $1.2 billion over four years before he left office. Kennedy’s action means that children “will miss lifesaving vaccines” against diseases causing pneumonia, diarrhea, measles, polio, and other diseases, former CDC official Deblina Datta said in an interview.

“There will be deaths,” said Datta, who retired in 2023 after 24 years at the agency. “I am not being hyperbolic. This is a big blow for children worldwide.”

Kennedy said Gavi had not done enough to promote vaccine safety. He also accused the group of complicity in censoring vaccine skeptics like him during the pandemic.

Before Kennedy intervened, the ACIP had been preparing to propose giving children one less shot. The committee was to have voted on reducing vaccinations against HPV, which causes cervical cancer, from two doses to one — because a single shot has proved so effective.

Kennedy has earned hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees from a pending lawsuit against Merck over alleged injuries from one of the HPV vaccines.

While it will have little actual impact, the vote on thimerosal also frustrated vaccine proponents. Public health agencies removed the substance from nearly all childhood vaccines beginning in 1999, out of concern that the accumulation of even tiny amounts of mercury could harm children’s brains and, some believed, cause autism.

Removal of thimerosal from childhood vaccines had no impact on autism rates, however.

But on Thursday, one of the earliest anti-thimerosal activists, nurse Lyn Redwood, presented a paper to ACIP on its dangers. Her arguments were nearly identical to a paper she co-wrote on the subject in 2001.

A summary of the evidence on thimerosal produced by CDC staff was posted online next to Redwood’s slides on Tuesday, but it was removed before the ACIP meeting began. The CDC paper concluded the evidence did not link thimerosal in vaccines to autism or other developmental issues.

According to The Washington Post, Kennedy has appointed Redwood to a position in the CDC’s immunization safety office.

“Removing thimerosal from vaccines didn’t make them safer, just more expensive,” Elias Kass, a naturopathic physician in Seattle, told the committee during a public comment session. “Re-litigation of questions already answered, like the safety of thimerosal, is not advancing radical transparency — it is an insidious attempt to suggest that something was missed or hidden previously.”

Removal of thimerosal from all flu vaccines may have drawbacks.

Two companies — Seqirus and Sanofi — still sell multi-dose flu vaccine vials that contain thimerosal as a preservative. A single vaccination from these 10-dose vials costs 10 to 40 times less than a single-shot prepackaged syringe, according to a CDC price list.

Seqirus will have no trouble replacing its remaining multi-dose vials with single syringes in time for the flu season, spokesperson Melanie Kerin said.

We’d like to speak with current and former personnel from the Department of Health and Human Services or its component agencies who believe the public should understand the impact of what’s happening within the federal health bureaucracy. Please message KFF Health News on Signal at (415) 519-8778 or get in touch here.

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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OCR Investigates Minnesota for Allowing Males to Compete in Sports Reserved for Females.

The Host Julie Rovner KFF Health News @jrovner @julierovner.bsky.social Read Julie's stories. Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.

It’s not exactly news that our nation’s health care system is only a “system” in the most generous sense of the word and that no one entity is really in charge of it. Notwithstanding, there are some specific responsibilities that belong to the federal government, others that belong to the states, and still others that are shared between them. And sometimes people and programs fall through the cracks.

Speaking before a live audience on June 23 at Aspen Ideas: Health in Colorado, three former governors — one of whom also served as secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services — discussed what it would take to make the nation’s health care system run more smoothly.

The session, moderated by KFF Health News’ Julie Rovner, featured Democrat Kathleen Sebelius, a former governor of Kansas and HHS secretary under President Barack Obama; Republican Chris Sununu, former governor of New Hampshire; and Democrat Roy Cooper, former governor of North Carolina.

Panelists Kathleen Sebelius Former HHS secretary, former Kansas governor (D) Chris Sununu Former governor of New Hampshire (R) Roy Cooper Former governor of North Carolina (D)

Among the takeaways from the discussion:

• States — and the governors who lead them — are major “customers” of the federal health system. For instance, states run research universities with the aid of federal grants from the National Institutes of Health. States also run Medicaid, the joint state-federal program for those with low incomes and disabilities, through which most of the nation’s care for issues such as mental health and substance use disorders is funded. In fact, most federal money sent to states is for Medicaid.
• Cuts to Medicaid outlined in the House and Senate versions of President Donald Trump’s One Big Beautiful Bill Act would leave a huge hole in state budgets — one that the states, already facing budget constraints, would be unable to fill without making difficult choices. Notably, the bill does not make substantive cuts Medicare, a program that has a significant amount of excess spending and is expected to be insolvent within a decade.
• Controlling health care costs is a major concern for the future of the nation’s fragmented health care system, as is maintaining the health care workforce. More people without insurance coverage means higher overall costs. Pandemic burnout, immigration raids, and even the cost of college are putting pressure on a dwindling workforce. The federal government could do more to encourage medical professionals to go into primary care and rural health care.

Video of this episode is available here on YouTube.

Click to open the transcript Transcript: Live From Aspen — Governors and an HHS Secretary Sound Off

[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.] 

Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, coming to you this week from the Aspen Ideas: Health conference in Aspen, Colorado. For this week’s podcast, we’re presenting a panel I moderated here with three former governors and one former HHS [Department of Health and Human Services] secretary, on how states and the federal government work together. This was taped on Monday, June 23, before a live audience. So, as we say, here we go. 

Good morning. Thank you all for being here. I’m Julie Rovner. I’m chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News, and I’m host of our weekly health news podcast — “What the Health?” — which we will do double duty this week for this panel. I am so thrilled to be here, and I welcome you all to Aspen Ideas: Health. As a journalist who’s covered health policy at the federal and state level for, let us just say, many years, I am super excited for this panel, which brings together those with experience in both. 

I will start by introducing our panelists. Here on my left is Kathleen Sebelius. She served as HHS secretary during the Obama administration from 2009 to 2014, presiding over the passage and implementation of the Affordable Care Act. I hope you were all around last night for the wonderful panel where they were reminiscing. Prior to her tenure in Washington, Secretary Sebelius served two terms as Kansas’ elected insurance commissioner and two more as governor. Today she also consults on health policy and serves on several boards, including — full disclosure — that of my organization, KFF. 

Next to her is Chris Sununu. He’s the former Republican governor of New Hampshire. Opposed, he was elected to a record four times before returning to the private sector. He’s also the only trained environmental engineer on this panel. 

Finally, Roy Cooper is the former Democratic governor of North Carolina, where he served alongside Gov. Sununu. I’m sure they have many stories to tell. As a state lawmaker, Mr. Cooper wrote the state’s first children’s health insurance program in the 1980s and as governor championed the state’s somewhat belated Medicaid expansion in 2023, which we’ll also talk about. He’s currently teaching at the Harvard School of Public Health. 

So here’s what we’re going to do. I’m going to chat with these guys for, I don’t know, 30, 40 minutes, and then we will open it to questions from the audience. There will be someone with microphones. I will let you know when it’s time. Just please make sure your question is a question. 

So, I want to set the stage. It’s not exactly news that our nation’s health care system can only be called a system in the very most generous sense of that term. Nobody is really in charge of it. Notwithstanding that, there are some specific responsibilities that belong to the federal government, others that belong to the states and or counties and cities, and still others that are shared between them. Kathleen, you’re the one on this panel who has served as both governor and as HHS secretary, so I was hoping you could give us two or three minutes on what you see as the primary roles for health care at the federal level at HHS, and those for states. And then I’ll let the rest of you weigh in. 

Kathleen Sebelius: Well, good morning, everybody, and thanks, Julie, for moderating. It’s lovely to be with my colleagues. That’s one of my former lives, as governor, so it’s great to be with governor colleagues. And just to make it clear, we’re not trying to gang up on Chris Sununu. Alex Azar, former HHS secretary in the first Trump administration, was supposed to be here today and had a family health issue, so he couldn’t join us. So it was supposed to be a little more balanced just to— 

Chris Sununu: My conservative lifeline has abandoned me, and he’ll buy me dinner in D.C. next time I’m in town. 

Sebelius: So, as Julie said, I think the health system, if you want to call it that, is definitely interrelated. And I think it’s one of the reasons that a lot of HHS secretaries have actually been governors, because we’re customers, if you will, of the federal health system. But just to break down a couple of categories: I was the elected insurance commissioner, which is an unusual spot. Only 11 states elect an insurance commissioner. Most are appointed as part of a governor’s Cabinet, but insurance is an over $3 trillion-a-year industry, still regulated at the state level. It’s the only multitrillion-dollar industry that there is no federal insurance regulator, and it still has a lot of control over health issues at the state level. The insurance commissioners regulate the marketplace plans. They look out for every company selling private insurance. They regulate Medicare supplemental plans. They’re very involved in consumer protection issues for insurance. And that’s all at the state level. 

Then the governor is clearly in charge of health at the state level. Runs the state employee plan in every state, which often is the largest insurance pool. I don’t know about in North Carolina or New Hampshire, but it certainly was in Kansas. Runs Medicaid, a huge health program. Is in charge of mental health, of the whole issues around the opioid crisis and drug issues. So a broad swath. In charge of prison health and corrections. A lot of health issues at the state level. And then you get to HHS, which is an agency that probably interacts more with states than any other Cabinet agency. I wrote down some of these numbers just so I wasn’t making them up off the top of my head, but 69% of all federal grants to states are Medicaid, and HHS transfers more money to state governments than all the other domestic agencies put together. 

So it’s largely Medicaid, but it also is mental health block grants. It’s all the children and families programs. It’s Head Start. It’s agencies on aging. There’s a real interaction. So governors are often good customers, if you will, of HHS. They need to be intertwined. They need to know what’s going on, what grants are on the table. Runs the whole Indian Health Service. A number of us had tribes in our states. So there is a lot of interaction. And even though I wasn’t able to quickly quantify the number, the other thing — and it’s become more apparent with the cuts on the table — is states run universities, which rely on research grants from the federal government. 

So the recently announced NIH [National Institutes of Health] cuts have huge implications in Kansas. We have three major universities, which are losing hundreds of millions of dollars in research projects. But that’s gone on all over the country. So there is a lot of interaction between the state and federal government. And as I say, with the insurance commissioner, we had to build an office at HHS to regulate the marketplace, because there were no federal regulators. So I brought in a lot of my former colleagues who had been in insurance departments around the country, to help set up that regulatory system and that oversight. 

Rovner: So I would like to ask the two former governors who’ve not been HHS secretaries, if you can, to give us an example of cooperation between the federal government and state government on health care that worked really well and an example of one that maybe didn’t work so well. 

Sununu: So I would argue they don’t work well more than they work well, unfortunately. So a big issue I think, across the entire country, is rural access to care, right? So a lot of these grants — and the secretary’s right — a lot of the grants that come in through Medicaid, they’ll go to population centers and population health. That’s really, really important aspects. But rural access to care, where you talk about mental health, the opioid crisis, that’s really where so many folks get left out of the mix. We went down and I inherited — I don’t want to say “inherited” — New Hampshire was at the tip of the spear for the drug crisis, right? The opioid crisis, 2017, we had the second-highest death rate in the country, and we realized the overdose rate, the death rate, was four times higher in rural New Hampshire than our inner cities, right? Four times. Why? It wasn’t that — it’s because nobody was putting services out there. 

Because it’s so much easier to put the services in the city. So a good example is, we went down to D.C. We worked with, at the time, Secretary Azar, the head of CMS —CMS is the center of Medicaid services and Medicare services, that’s really the overseer of these massive, massive programs — to get some flexibility with the grants to be able to do a little more with our dollars and create a hub-and-spoke system for rural access to care. And that worked really, really, really well. And I’m not here to tout [President Donald] Trump or anything, but at the time the Trump administration really got that and it worked well. 

But I would say, more often than not, if you want something done a little different — we call them [Section] 1115 waivers, not to get wonky — you want to try something, the challenge isn’t that D.C. won’t let you do it. The challenge is it can take forever to get it done. It takes six months for my team to put together an 1115 application and then a year and a half sometimes for Washington to decide, after a hundred lawyers look at it, whether they’ll allow you to do it. So I would always argue, at the base of all this, is — Gov. Cooper, at the time, and his team, they know what North Carolina needs in terms of health care, specialized services, better than Washington, right? Or Mississippi. Or New Hampshire. The states know. They’re on the ground. 

And my argument has always been: The best thing Washington can do if you want to save money and get better outcomes in health care, go more to a block-grant-type system. I know people don’t like to hear that, but let the states who are on the ground have more flexibility with those Medicaid dollars, create the efficiency at a localized level, where the patient interactions there with a — because again, I had an opioid crisis. Maybe there’s a huge mental health crisis in North Carolina. Maybe there’s an acute-care crisis in urban populations in California. Let them have flexibility and the ability to make more immediate returns on that. And so that’s why I say more often than not, it doesn’t work, because of the time delay. The bureaucracy, the lawyers. No offense to the — well, I don’t care if you take offense. But the lawyers in the room, the lawyers that get a hold of this thing and then give you a hundred reasons why it can’t happen. 

And then the last thing I’ll throw out there is billing codes. Do you know there’s 10,000 Medicaid billing codes? Trying to ask a small nonprofit who’s providing local health care services and a volunteer to understand 10,000 Medicaid billing codes, and what happens? Often it’s not nefarious, but they get them wrong and then it comes back and it goes back and forth and the cash gets held up because of Washington, as opposed to just having a localized, We have our problem, let’s fix it on the ground, and move forward and get the help they need. So my challenge is always with the bureaucracy and slowing things down more than anything. 

Rovner: Gov. Cooper. 

Roy Cooper: Glad to be with you, Julie, and I worked closely with Gov. Sununu. We served as governors at the same time, and glad to have then-Gov. Sibelius, working with her when I was attorney general of North Carolina. I was an OK governor, but I’ve got the greatest first lady in the history of North Carolina with my wife, Kristin, who’s with us today. And thank you for all the work that you did. Somebody asked me what I miss most about being governor, and I said ingress and egress to sporting events was what I — because I had to learn to drive again. 

So I look at this relationship as the federal government being a major funder to reach goals, but that states have the flexibility within those guidelines to deal with individual challenges that states have. And I don’t disagree completely with Gov. Sununu about how the waiver system is working, but when you get it working, it does some miracles. 

For example, we got the first 1115 waiver in the country, to invest Medicaid dollars in social determinants of health. We called it Healthy Opportunities. And we’ve talked so much again and again about prevention and how investment there can make such a huge difference. We also got another waiver with hospital-directed payments to require all of our 99 hospitals to take part in a medical debt relief plan. When we expanded Medicaid in North Carolina, which we’ll talk a little bit about in a minute, more than 652,000 people were so grateful to have health insurance, but many of them owed so much money in medical debt that it prevented them from buying a house or getting a credit card and was causing all kinds of problems. So we got a waiver to put a requirement in the directed payments that hospitals are getting to make sure that we wipe off the books that $4 billion in medical debt in North Carolina, and that is happening as we speak. 

People are getting the books cleared, all people who were on Medicaid and those making 350% or less of the federal poverty level. And then going forward, in order to continue to get the directed payments, they have to automatically enroll people at that income level into their programs for charity. So the cost of health care is being borne by those who can least afford it. And Medicaid has given us the opportunity and the flexibility with Medicaid has given us an opportunity to make those investments, and that’s why I worry, Governor, about what this bill that’s coming — you talk about red tape now. You look at red tape that’s coming if this legislation passes Congress right now. It’s going to make it 10 times worse. 

So when you think about what Medicaid has done and this system with all of its faults — it has many — we’re at the lowest uninsured rate we’ve been right now. So that thus far has been a success. We’ve got a long way to go, but I think that we need to continue to work to make the investments angle toward prevention and keeping that symbiotic relationship between the federal and the state, make it smoother, eliminate red tape. But I think we’re making some progress. 

Rovner: So let’s talk about Medicaid, which is kind of the elephant in the room right now since the Senate is presumably going to take up a bill that would make some significant cuts to the program, possibly as soon as this week. You’ve all three run Medicaid programs as governors. One of the Republican talking points on this bill is that what’s supposed to be a shared program, states are using loopholes and gimmicks to make the federal government pay more. What would happen if these cuts actually went through? Would states be able to just say: OK, you caught us. Now we’re just going to have to pay up? 

Sebelius: Well, I can talk a little bit about it. So I live in a state, unfortunately, that has not expanded Medicaid. Kansas is one of the 10 states, although 40 states and the District of Columbia have used the Affordable Care Act provision to enroll slightly higher-income working folks in Medicaid. And it’s a huge federal-state partnership, with the federal government paying 90% of the premium cost of that additional population. 

Rovner: And that was because the states didn’t think they had the money to expand otherwise? 

Sebelius: That’s correct. So it was a generous offer, but after the Supreme Court it was a voluntary program. So there are still 10 states in the country, and what you can see easily looking at the map of the country is what the health outcomes are in the states that have not expanded. Expansion was available on Jan. 1, 2014. So we have a 10-year real-time experiment in health outcomes, in budget outcomes, in what has happened to the state economy. And we know a couple of things from a national level. More hospitals have closed, mostly rural hospitals, in states that have not expanded than the states that expanded. There are fairly significant health differences now. There were health differences before, but they have been accelerated. 

There are more maternal-health deaths in states that have not expanded, not because the woman may not be eligible for Medicaid but because the hospital closes and now she’s 50 miles away from her birthing center and transportation issues and don’t have gas in the car and whatever. We are losing women having children, which is really shocking in the United States of America. So I think that not only is Medicaid a huge portion — I had a good friend who some of you may know, Brian Schweitzer, who was the former governor of Montana, and Brian used to say what a governor does is pretty easy. We medicate, we educate, we incarcerate, and the rest is chump change. You can find it in the couch, but it— 

Sununu: Well, I disagree with that. Totally different discussion. 

Sebelius: In terms of where the money is. Those are the big chunks of — and Medicaid in most state budgets, it’s a huge chunk of money. So when you talk about potentially $700 billion in cuts to Medicaid, it will blow up state budgets across the country, and it will leave, to Gov. Sununu and Gov. Cooper’s points, literally millions of people uninsured. The estimates out of the House bill — the Senate bill still hasn’t been scored — out of the House bill is 8- to 9 million people, but I think that’s likely to go up with a Senate bill. 

Sununu: I would add, expanded Medicaid has been — we were an expanded Medicaid state. It’s been wonderful. Health outcomes are definitely a lot better. There’s a lot more access to services, and these are, again, the difference in the population, these are able-bodied working adults as opposed to the traditional Medicaid population that deal with either poverty issues or disability and all this other stuff. So it’s a 50-50 versus split on traditional versus 90-10. I don’t have a problem with changes. The way they’re doing it is awful. So as a state, if you want — they are really adamant about dropping it, and it would lead to bad outcomes, there’s no question — I would say, OK, do it over 10 years. We’re going to drop it 5% a year. Allow states to gradually come in, right? Allow states to alter their budgets. No state can alter their budget and take up — in California it might even be a trillion, hundreds of billions of dollars. 

Sebelius: Yeah. 

Sununu: So it’s so much money. So no state can do that. And so obviously you’d have a collapse of the system. It would be terrible to do that, and they’ve taken that off the table. The meta-scam piece is much more complicated, where states tax hospitals, match it with federal funds and send it back to hospitals in terms of uncompensated care. That’s a bad practice that everybody does, so we should keep it. I don’t know a better way to say it. And I say that because New Hampshire was the first one.  

Sebelius: And it’s legal. It’s legal. 

Sununu: We invented it in ’92. It’s legal. It’s fine. It’s become precedent in practice. It’s OK. And so we should keep doing that. And what they’re going to do is lower the amount that states can tax the hospitals and therefore lower the amount that we would get. And that, really, for us — I don’t know how other states use their dollars — we put a large portion of that back to hospitals for that uncompensated population, the ones that truly are unregistered. I don’t mind going after — we should get the cost at some point, right? You all owe $37 trillion, by the way. I hope you know that. So the savings have to come from somewhere, but Washington has to be smart about how to do it, what the actual outcomes are going to be, and how to ratchet it down so you’re not, again, throwing everybody off the cliff. And that’s what this bill would do. It would throw people right off a cliff. 

Cooper: Yeah, I think the answer is absolutely no states can’t afford it. We governors have to balance budgets. The federal government obviously doesn’t. They just continue to raise the debt ceiling, problems in and of itself, but that’s where the funding should come from. I think there are a few billionaires we could tax a little bit more in order to create more funding to do the work that we need to do, but— 

Sununu: There’s a basket at the door if you all want to drop something in on the way out. 

Sebelius: A big basket. 

Cooper: That, too. But I think that if we’re going to rely on the states — what’s happening now, I think, is a sneaky way to do this. I think they have understood that just openly and notoriously telling the states they have to pay more is not going to work and it’s not politically feasible. But what they have done is gone through the back door and created all of this red tape that’s going to end up with people being pushed off who are otherwise eligible. It’s going to end up with states having to make horrible choices, like with SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program] benefits, for example. 

In North Carolina, we’ll have a shortfall of about $700 million. Now with SNAP benefits, not only do you feed hungry people who need food, but there’s an economic benefit to our state. It’s like a $1.80 economic benefit generated from $1 of SNAP benefit. But I don’t see my Republican legislature putting in an extra $700 million in SNAP benefits in order to be able to feed hungry people. So the choices that states are going to make are going to be bad, because states are limited as to the decisions that they have to make. And this is going to be really tough, particularly if this Senate bill doesn’t change a whole lot. States are going to have a significant problem. 

Sebelius: All I wanted to say is in addition to the Medicaid issue hitting a big portion of the lower-income working population is a corresponding Affordable Care Act hit that isn’t in the bill, because it’s a tax incentive that will expire at the end of this year. So not acting on the additional premium tax credits for the Affordable Care Act hits almost the same — in a state like Kansas, which has not expanded Medicaid, a lot of that population is in the marketplace plans with an enhanced tax credit. That goes away at the end of the year. So we’re looking at potentially 11 million people in states across this country. 

And no governor has the ability to write a check and say: OK, I’m going to just provide, out of 100% state funds, I’ll help you buy your health insurance. But not having health insurance means you don’t get doctors paid, more hospitals go on —it has a ripple. People can’t take their meds. They can’t go to work. They have mental health issues. It is a really spiraling impact. And as Gov. Cooper and Sununu have said, we have the lowest rate of uninsured Americans right now that we’ve ever had in history, and that could change pretty dramatically. 

Sununu: The only other piece I was going to bring up just to highlight the cowardice of Washington, D.C.: Why are they focusing on Medicaid, but no one wants to talk Medicare? Well, it’s easy because states, right? Because they can blame states. Well, we made changes, but it’s up to the states whether they want to keep it or not, right? And they’re going to blame the governors and blame what’s happening at the state level, whether expanded Medicaid survives or not. Meanwhile, it’s the crisis that they’re creating. Then you have Medicare, which, by the way, everyone agrees there’s massive waste and fraud and abuse, and that system needs a massive overhaul because that system, by the way, is going bankrupt, right? It’ll be insolvent in nine or 10 years, something like that, right?. But no one wants to talk about that piece, right?. But that’s an integral piece because both those left and right hands of Medicaid and Medicare drive the non-private sector of health care, right? Which creates not a competitive — we can get into the whole reducing competition in a free market in health care to actually get costs down. 

But it’s really hard as a governor, I think, and I think I speak for all 50, to hear Washington talk about all these massive cuts they want to make to Medicaid, but they’re not going to touch Medicare, because that’s a federal program. And so they have to do both in some way, and they have to do it in a smart way, in an even-keeled way. It has to take place over time. It has to look at population health outcomes. But they don’t think like that. They just don’t. They look at top-line numbers, top-line issues. Maybe they’ll get to the bill in a few weeks. Maybe they won’t. They’ll be on vacation most of the summer. It’ll be very frustrating. Even if it passes in the Senate, it won’t even — what? September, maybe? Maybe they take it up in September? 

Rovner: You don’t think they’re going to make it by July Fourth? 

Sununu: The Senate might, but then they vacation. They’ve got to go on vacation. So isn’t that the frustration we all have? We have a major crisis here. Here’s an idea. Do your jobs. 

Sebelius: Just a small addendum, too. 

Sununu: Sorry. I’m frustrated. 

Sebelius: Gov. Sununu, because he’s the baby of the group, if you can tell, and I’m part of the gray tsunami. Part of the reason Medicare is running out of money is at least when my parents were involved in Medicare, there were six or seven workers for every retiree. We’re now down to two. And I want to know those two workers. I got to tell you, I’m at a point in my life I’d like to bring them home with me, feed them on a regular basis, get them — but we have an aging country. We have many more people enrolled in Medicare right now than we have had in the past and fewer in the workforce. So the math, you’re right, is daunting going forward, but it isn’t, I would suggest, massive waste, fraud, and abuse as much as a changing demographic in our population. 

Sununu: I was quoting [Rep. Nancy] Pelosi on that one. Sorry. 

Rovner: I want to pick up on something. For those who were not there last night for the Affordable Care Act session, one of the things that no one brought up is that in the intervening 15 years since the Affordable Care Act passed, I think, every single one of the funding mechanisms to help offset the cost of the bill has been repealed by Congress. The individual mandate is gone. Most of the industry-specific taxes are gone. The Cadillac tax that was going to try and deter very generous health plans is gone. States don’t have this kind of opportunity to say, We’re going to pass something that pays for itself, and then get rid of the pay force, right? 

Cooper: That’s a really good point. And right now the Affordable Care Act is working to insure a lot of people, but it’s continuing along with all of our system that’s set up to drive up the cost. And I know we’re going to talk a little bit about cost in just a minute, but again, I agree with Gov. Sununu — that’s the coward’s way out. All of the lobbyists come with their special interests who are paying something and should be paying something, but they get it removed piece by piece by piece. And then the only way to get it is from the very people who need it the most. And they’re the ones who end up suffering. And I think it was mentioned last night — $14,600 a person in the United States for investment in health care. That’s wrong on many levels. 

Rovner: So let’s talk about cost. Who is responsible for controlling the cost of health care? Both sides point at each other. And as I mentioned at the opening, we don’t really have a system, but we obviously have the federal government responsible for a lot of health care bills and the state government’s responsible for a lot of health care bills. So at what point does somebody step up and say, We really need to get this under control? 

Sununu: I’ll throw a couple things in there. The average cost to spend overnight, in America, in a hospital: $32,000 — a night. That’s insane, right? That’s insane. And so the argument that I always have is, let’s look at the cost to stay in a hospital. And I know this is going to seem far afield, but it’s all part of health care. What I pay my average social worker — which, by the way, we need a lot more social workers. And if a social worker’s making 50 grand a year, they’re lucky doing it and God bless them. They’re doing incredibly hard work. So why do we have a system that is driving these costs here, that haven’t gotten any of those costs under control, still make it really difficult to pay the workforce? And I think workforce is a huge part of this crisis. 

Rovner: Next question. 

Sununu: Yeah, that’s another the question, especially the social workers and whatnot and generationally and nurses and all that to get them in there. If you don’t have the workforce, it’s not going to work. So the disparity of costs. And then there are certain aspects, let’s talk pharmaceuticals, where you are all, we are all effectively paying massive costs on pharmaceuticals because we’re subsidizing the rest of the world, right? Because they’re developed here. There’s massive cost controls in Europe, so we pay a huge amount of money. And again, I’m going to bring up Trump only because he brought up the “fat shot.” Is that what he called it? The other—? Yeah. The fact that Ozempic here is $1,200 but a hundred bucks in Europe. Why? Because they have cost controls there, and our fairly unregulated system forces those types of costs on the private sector here. 

So I’m a free-market guy. I’m always a believer that the more private sector investment you get and the more, I’ll just call it competition, especially smaller competition, can create better outcomes. But we just don’t have that. There’s no private sector. There’s no competition in health care, because so much of it is driven by Medicaid and Medicare. So I would just argue that you have to look at finding the balance here in the U.S., but don’t forget there’s other issues across the rest of the world that are affecting your costs as well. 

Cooper: And I’ll give you two things. One that you don’t do to affect the cost issue. You may be tempted to reduce your budget to throw people off of coverage, but more people without coverage increases costs significantly, and we all pay for it when you have indigent patients going into those hospitals. They go to the private sector first, which is why a lot of businesses in North Carolina supported our expansion of Medicaid, because 44% of small businesses don’t even provide coverage for their customers. So we should not be kicking people off coverage. In order to reduce costs, we need to cover more people. And the second thing we should do, and this we say a lot here and it was said last night, but collectively, if we can come together and make these short-term investments for long-term gain on primary care and prevention, that is the best way to lower costs to make sure people are healthier. Because our system is geared to spend all the money when it is most expensive and not when it is least expensive and can do the most good to delay that spending at the other end. 

And there are a lot of ways that we can approach this, but what frustrates me about Washington is that you don’t see any real effort there to concentrate on prevention and primary care and making those investments that we know — we know — not only save lives but save money and reduce the cost of health care. And I think that can be a bipartisan way that we can come together to deal with this. Things you mentioned, certainly driving up the cost, but that is a basic thing that we know will make people healthier and will cost the system less. 

Sebelius: I don’t think there’s any disagreement in all of us and probably all of you that we pay way too much for health care per capita. And we have pretty indifferent health results. We have great care for some of the people some of the time. But in terms of universally good care for people across this country, regardless of where you live, it just doesn’t happen. It isn’t delivered, regardless of the fact that we spend much more money. I would say that it’s beginning to have some impact, but a couple things occurred as part of the framework of the Affordable Care Act and other changes at the D.C. level. First, Medicare began to issue value-based payment contracts. They were nonexistent before 2010, and that just means you begin to pay for outcomes. Not just doing more stuff makes more money, but what happens to the patient? Is it a good recovery? Do you come back to the hospital too soon? Is somebody following up? 

So that has shifted now to most Medicare payments are really in a value-based payment outcome. And that has made a difference. I think it makes a difference in patient outcomes. It makes a difference across the board. There has been some change, not nearly enough, in primary care reimbursement. We need a whole lot more of that. Specialty care pays so much more than primary care, and it discourages young docs from going into a primary care field, a gerontology field, a pediatric field. We desperately need folks. I’d say third that a lot of hospitals, and particularly in rural areas, to your point, Gov. Sununu, are beginning to look at a range of services, not just, as we call it, butts in beds, but they’re running long-term care services. They’re running a lot of outpatient. 

And we just had a session on rural health care, and the amount of outpatient care provided by rural hospitals is now up to about 80%. So actually they’re trying to do prevention, trying to meet people where they are. We have to keep some support systems under those hospitals, because if their only payment is how many bed spaces you fill per night, it’s counterintuitive to have hospitals doing prevention and then their bottom line is affected. But I think Gov. Cooper is just absolutely right on target. There was a huge prevention fund for the first time in the Affordable Care Act. It went to states and cities, not to some federal government. It was called, for years, a big slush fund. But it has engaged, I think, a lot of people, a lot of mayors, a lot of governors in everything from bike trails to healthy eating to scratch kitchens in schools, to doing a range of reintroducing physical education back into education classes. But we need to do a lot more of that. 

Sununu: Can I ask a question? Were you guys a managed Medicaid state? 

Cooper: Yeah, we are now. 

Sununu: Were you at the time? So for those who know, maybe 40 states, 41, 42 states? 

Sebelius: I think it’s almost 45. 

Sununu: So the states, I don’t know when this started. It had started right around the time I got in New Hampshire. We hired a couple large companies to basically manage our Medicaid. But to the Gov. Cooper’s point, theoretically you bring those companies in to look at the whole health of the individual and more on the prevention services, more on that side as opposed to just fee-for-service, fee-for-service, right? Where you get inefficiency and waste and all that sort of thing. It’s worked, kind of. I think most of the models still have a lot of fee-for-service built into them. And so it’s not quite there. You have these very large companies, the Centenes and some of these other really, really large companies that are effectively deciding whether — they’re insurance companies that are deciding whether someone should get care or not, or that service is required or not. 

Usually it works, but obviously we have a lot of tragic stories of families getting rejected for service or things like that. So, I think if given more flexibility that it could theoretically work, but I think the managed-care model is mostly working but not great. But it was designed to deal with exactly what Gov. Cooper’s talking about, the whole health of the individual, more preventive care. Don’t wait for the person on Medicaid to lose all their teeth — right? — because they’re a meth addict and they have massive heart and liver issues, right? Get them those prevention services early on because they’re into a recovery program and the whole health of the individual exponentially saves you money and increases their health outcomes and all that. But if you have somebody looking at that from a holistic perspective, theoretically it comes out better. I don’t know. You probably have a better perspective than anyone whether you think it really has worked or not. 

Sebelius: Well, I think it’s beginning to work and it works better in some places than others. But I think that the federal programs, arguably both Medicare and Medicaid, provide, if you will, the most efficient health insurance going. Private plans, in all due deference to your market competition, run anywhere from 15 to 20% overhead. Medicare runs at a 2% overhead. Medicaid is about that same thing. So delivery of health benefits on an efficient basis is really at the public sector, less at the private sector, which is why we were hoping to have a public option in the Affordable Care Act to get that market competition. Medicare Advantage provides market competition now to fee-for-service. And some of the companies do a great job with holistic care. Some of the companies do a really bad job, far more denials, far more issues of people not being able to get the benefits they need. So it is a balanced thing. 

Sununu: And smaller states, we had a trouble because we couldn’t find many companies that wanted to come into a small state like New Hampshire, because the population wasn’t going to be huge. We have the lowest population on Medicaid in the country. So if I got a third company and maybe they get 35-, 40,000 people, what’s the risk pool of those individuals? They might be like, Nah, it’s not going to work for us, right? So the smaller states, because they’re managed at the state level, have challenges. We tried to actually partner with Vermont and Maine. 

Sebelius: Regional. 

Sununu: Right? Regional opportunities. The feds wouldn’t let us do that. Very frustrating. But not you. 

Sebelius: I did a waiver for New Hampshire to have a regional program. 

Sununu: No, I blame Alex for that. That’s another thing — I’ve yelled at Alex for that for years. 

Sebelius: Maybe the next guys took it away. 

Rovner: So we keep talking about people getting care or people not getting care. We haven’t talked a lot about the people who deliver the care. Obviously the health care workforce is a continuing frustration in this country, as we know. We have too many specialists, not enough primary care doctors, not enough primary care available in rural areas. What’s the various responsibility of the federal government and the states to try and ensure that — obviously states need to worry about workforce development. Isn’t that one of the things that states do? 

Sununu: All right, I’ll kick things off because I’ll say something really liberal that you’ll all love. Do you know what the key is? Honestly? It’s an immigration reform bill. 

Sebelius: I was just— 

Sununu: It’s immigration reform. Because this generation is not having kids, right? We’re losing population. So just the math on bodies, if you will, in terms of entering any workforce is going to be challenging as the United States goes forward. More and more if you look at the number of people, social workers, people in recovery, MLADCs [master licensed alcohol and drug counselors] in recovery programs, nurses, whatever it is, those tend to be more people that are born outside of this country, that come to this country. They go to nursing school — whatever it is they become, it’s great. 

But until we get a good immigration reform bill that opens those doors bigger and better and with more regulation on top of them, but open those doors, I think it’s going to be a challenge. It’s not necessarily an issue for the government to — government can’t create people, right? Maybe we can incentivize more schools and that sort of thing. And I think most governors do that. We put in nursing schools in our university system and all that, but you still have to fill the seats and you still have to encourage the young people to want to get into those types of programs. 

Sebelius: I think the government at the state and local level and federal level can do more. More residency programs. The federal government can actually move the needle on some of the payment systems for specialty vs. primary care. And we haven’t moved fast enough on that. I think that’s no doubt. What’s pending right now with ICE [Immigration and Customs Enforcement] raids all over the country and people being terrified to come here or stay here is going to make the workforce issue significantly worse. Home health care workers, folks in nursing homes, people who are LPNs [licensed practical nurses] are now being discouraged from either coming or staying. And I think we’re in for an even bigger shock. 

A lot of folks got burned out in covid. There’s no question that we lost vital health care workers. We need to be on a really massive rebuilding program, and instead we have put up a big red flag. And a lot of people who are here who are providing care, who may have a family member or somebody else who is not at legal status, and they’re gone or they’re not going to go to work or they’re not going to provide those services. And I think we’re about to hit even a bigger wall. 

Cooper: You’ve mentioned compensation. Obviously gearing more toward the preventive side, the primary care side is important. I also think one thing that’s working some, and I think we could do more, obviously requires funding, but providing scholarship money for doctors, nurses, others who agree to give a certain number of years of service in primary care and particularly in rural areas. We’re seeing some of that work. There are a lot of people who feel compelled. You mentioned, when I was up at the Chan School at Harvard and I was teaching a graduate school class, and I love public health people because they care so passionately about others and they want to get in this field. Making it financially viable for them to be able to complete the mission that they feel in their heart, I think, is something that I think is worthy of greater investment. 

Sununu: To that point, I think it’s a great idea and it definitely works. But even before that, just look at what it costs to go to a four-year college now, right? I’m a parent. I have a 20-, 19-, and a 12-year-old. So we’re all absolutely looking at what college costs, and I don’t mind picking on a few of them. Like NYU [New York University], what, a $100,000? So my daughter’s not going to be a nurse, even think about being a nurse, because questioning whether she even goes to college, right? Because she might go to take community college classes instead or do something else. So, or she’s got to find that other pathway. So the initial steps to getting to be a doctor or higher-level primary care physician even, there’s a huge barrier before the barrier. 

And so I think we just need to think holistically about how young people and why they’re making certain choices, and the financial aspects of going to college, I think, over the next 10 years are going to really blow up and create a massive problem. And sometimes it’s very healthy, right?. Sometimes it’s great that young people are thinking differently. It’s not, Go to a four-year college or you don’t have value. No, they think totally different. They know they can have a great life path in other areas, but that postsecondary first-four-year barrier right now is just, we’re just scratching the surface of how big it will be in terms of preventing them from entering the four-year. 

Rovner: We’re running out of time. I do want to let the audience— 

Sebelius: Can I just— 

Rovner: Yes. 

Sebelius: One thing to Gov. Sununu’s point. So there is the national commissioned health corps, which does pay off medical debt for nursing students blah blah blah. What we found, though, is a lot of people couldn’t even get to the medical debt, because they can’t get their college paid off. They can’t get into medical school. So moving that to a much more upstream, into high school, into early college, is the way we get— 

Sununu: Certificate programs in high school, like pre-nursing programs, social-work programs in your vo-tech schools — huge opportunities there. You get like a 14- or 15-year-old excited about helping someone. You’re giving them a certificate. They could enter the workforce at 19 in some ways. And then the workforce is helping them pay off that schooling or expanding those community— 

Sebelius: Or sending them on. 

Sununu: Yeah. There’s all these other ways to do it. So I think that’s the gateway that we have to keep opening. 

Sebelius: It’s got to be earlier though. 

Sununu: Much earlier. 

Rovner: All right, we have time for a couple of questions. I see a lot of hands. Wait until a microphone gets to you. OK. 

Stephanie Diaz: Hi, and thank you for this amazing conversation. My name is Stephanie Diaz. I’m with a corporate venture fund attached to a health system. Really thrilled for this conversation, and where it ended on workforce is really compelling. The Big Beautiful Bill and the Senate version has a cap on financial aid for degrees like medical programs. Considering what you just said, what are the goals of legislation like that and what can— 

Sebelius: No idea. 

Diaz: Why? 

Cooper: Save money. 

Sununu: Yeah, yeah. 

Cooper: Finding a way. 

Rovner: What would the impact be? I think that’s probably a fairer question. 

Sununu: Well, in this field would be devastating, right? I would imagine. I don’t know what the cap is. I don’t know what they’re basing that on. I don’t know if they’re— 

Diaz: $150,000. And we know that a medical degree costs, well, more than $150,000 for a student. 

Rovner: I think they’ve said the goal is that they want to push — they want to force down tuition. 

Sununu: Well, the government forced up tuition. That’s a whole different conversation. 

Cooper: They’re going to force out med students is what they’re going to do. 

Sununu: Look, I’ll be the devil’s advocate$150,000 for primary care, for example. If you’re a primary care — any medical degree, yeah. I don’t know what the thought process is other than they’re probably saying, well, these doctors, once you get your degree, you’re making a heck of a lot of money. These guys can pay stuff off. Let’s move that tuition or scholarship money to the social workers, to the MLADCs, to the community colleges, because that’s where you find more low-income families that can’t pay even $7- or $10,000 at a community college. That’s the real barrier. Low-income families as opposed to, look, giving $150,000, that’s a lot of money. And if these guys — if there’s anyone in America that can actually pay off college debt, it’s a doctor. So I’m being a little bit devil’s advocate because I don’t know the heart of the program, but that’s a heck of a lot of money and that’s a lot more tuition and scholarship funds than any other profession in the country. So I think it’s just about finding a balance. I am being a little devil’s advocate because I don’t know the details. 

Rovner: All right, I think I have time for one more question. 

Speaker: I’m a CFO at an ACO [accountable care organization] in Nebraska, and if I have to brag, our per cost, per beneficiaries, under $10,000 per reported on the latest 2023 numbers. Can you speak to the administration’s thought on value-based care contracting? And I know in Project 2025 it was referenced that — you’re laughing. 

Sununu: No, I hate hearing those words. 

Speaker: I did dig into that. And it is talked about to be attacked, value-based care contracts moving forward. So I was hoping that you could speak to that, maybe the intention of this administration, so thanks. 

Cooper: You want to talk about the intent of this administration? 

Sebelius: I’m not going to speak about this administration. You can speak about that. 

Sununu: No, I have no idea what the intent was. And every time I hear Project 2025 I shudder because it’s like, ah, I hate that thing. But, I don’t know why. 

Speaker: No not why but for behind the scenes do you think there’s still support for— 

Sebelius: I can tell you it’s one of the areas I think there’s huge bipartisan support inside Congress. So folks have come after it often from the health system because they really didn’t — they’d much rather, in some cases, have the fee-for-service payment. If I operate, I want to get my money. If I’m an anesthesiologist, I want to get my money. So value-based care really began to shake up the health system itself, health providers. I don’t know what this administration intends to do, but I know Congress has really wrapped their arms around value-based care and is really pushing the administrative agencies inside D.C. to continue and go faster. Bundled care for an operation where you put all the providers together and look at outcome. A lot of things that the ACOs are doing, congratulations. But that notion didn’t even exist before 2010, and I think it is absolutely on a trajectory now that it’s not going to go back. 

Sununu: And I’ll add this: As kooky as your successor is, the current HHS secretary, because he’s kooky, he’s not on board, either. So I think, again, regardless of what the administration wants, I don’t think that— 

Sebelius: Oh, not on board with getting rid of that. 

Sununu: Yeah, exactly. Not on board with getting— 

Sebelius: I just wanted to clarify. 

Sununu: I don’t think there’s going to be changes. I don’t think Congress is there. I don’t think the current secretary is there. I don’t know where the current secretary is on a lot of different things. He seems to change his mind quite often, but just don’t eat the red dye and you’ll be fine. 

Sebelius: But it’s one of the few places I would say— 

Cooper: Is there anything in the BBB [Big Beautiful Bill] on that? 

Rovner: We are officially out of time before Gov. Sununu gets himself into more trouble. I want to thank the panel so much and thank you to the audience, and enjoy your time at Aspen. 

OK. That’s our show for this week. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcast. We’d appreciate it if you left us a review. That helps other people find us, too. Special thanks as always to our producer, Francis Ying, holding down the fort in Washington, and our editor, Emmarie Huetteman, here on the ground with me in Aspen. Also, as always, you can email us your comments or questions. We’re at whatthehealth@kff.org, all one word. Or you can tweet me. I’m @jrovner. Or on Bluesky, @julierovner. We’ll be back in your feed from Washington next week. Until then, be healthy. 

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Within an hour of receiving a covid vaccination in November 2020, Utah preschool teacher Brianne Dressen felt pins and needles through her arms and legs. In the medical odyssey that followed, she suffered double vision, chronic nausea, brain fog, and profound weakness. Once a rock climber, she became a couch potato.

Although Dressen’s symptoms were rare in that season of hundreds of millions of covid vaccinations, they were common enough to draw the attention of a National Institutes of Health neuroscientist named Avindra Nath, who examined Dressen and more than 30 other people with a similar syndrome in 2021. He recommended Dressen take steroids and antibodies — treatments that saved her life, she said.

And then, according to emails reviewed by KFF Health News, Nath said he couldn’t help anymore. His clinical study was ending. He directed the patients to seek local help. But, Dressen said, there wasn’t any.

Nath declined to speak to KFF Health News for this article. The FDA searched international vaccine safety databases for small-fiber neuropathy, one of the most common symptoms he mentioned in a write-up of the patients, and found it was less prevalent in vaccinated than in unvaccinated patients, said Peter Marks, who led the FDA division responsible for vaccines until Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. forced him out in May.

While it’s possible that Nath’s patients suffered covid vaccine injuries, Marks said, their symptoms were so varied it was hard to characterize a possible syndrome.

But for Dressen and others convinced the vaccines injured them, their experiences were symptomatic of a well-intentioned but flawed U.S. system for monitoring the rare ill effects of vaccines. The system isn’t well-funded enough to answer questions that people urgently want answered, and that can feed vaccine hesitancy, safety experts say.

Its shortcomings were on particular display during the mass vaccination campaigns of the pandemic, when even rare serious side effects could affect thousands of people.

Now some leading vaccine scientists are calling for more resources to research vaccine safety and support people with claims of injury — and asking Kennedy, who has a history as an anti-vaccine activist, to step up.

“Spending money on vaccine safety is not saying vaccines aren’t safe; it’s showing a commitment to continued improvement,” said Y. Tony Yang, a professor of health policy at George Washington University’s Milken Institute School of Public Health.

So far, they’ve been disappointed. While Kennedy gives the public the impression that vaccines are harmful, he hasn’t talked about ways to make them safer. And he’s made the problem worse by cutting programs and dismissing scientists who are most knowledgeable about the problems, according to numerous vaccine experts.

“The reduction in emphasis on the unbiased ascertainment of vaccine safety signals, and redirection toward certain specific issues like autism in vaccines, which we know is not true — that is what’s dangerous,” Marks said.

In March, the Trump administration abruptly canceled a contract with researchers just as they began a massive covid vaccine study aimed at discovering the genetic traits that make certain people vulnerable to vaccine-triggered myocarditis. That condition struck about 1 in 13,000 teenage boys and young men who received two doses of the Pfizer or Moderna mRNA vaccine in 2020 and 2021.

Then, on June 9, Kennedy sacked the entire 17-member Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, or ACIP, which during the pandemic impaneled a group of experts that reviewed safety data from nearly 700 million covid vaccinations.

The new ACIP contains members who have said most vaccines are dangerous and improperly tested. Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-La.), who chairs the Senate committee with oversight of HHS, said on X on June 23 that the ACIP meeting scheduled for June 25-26 should be delayed until ACIP is staffed with less biased, more knowledgeable members.

HHS officials have suggested that Kennedy intends to throw out the whole vaccine safety system and start over. In a statement to KFF Health News, spokesperson Emily Hilliard accused the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of “suppressing information about vaccine injuries” and said the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, or VAERS, and the Vaccine Safety Datalink, monitoring systems in place since the early 1990s, were “designed to fail” and “templates of regulatory malpractice.”

She said HHS was “building surveillance systems that will accurately measure vaccine risks as well as benefits.” Asked for details, Hilliard did not respond. The HHS budget proposal for fiscal year 2026 makes no mention of vaccine safety programs.

The current U.S. vaccine safety system began with passage of the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act, which aimed at stabilizing the vaccine supply by stopping lawsuits against drug companies. At the time they were getting out of the vaccine business, finding it less risky and more profitable to produce drugs for chronic diseases. The act set up the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program and VAERS.

CDC vaccine safety officer Robert Chen built on VAERS to create the Vaccine Safety Datalink, which looks for evidence of vaccine harms in electronic health records. In 2001, the CDC set up the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment project, through which a network of eight U.S. centers study rare vaccine reactions.

But the vaccine safety system’s budget has been stuck at around $20 million most years. That hasn’t been enough to study rare but recurring vaccine injuries in a serious way.

“$20 million to look at all the licensed vaccines in this country is woefully inadequate,” Dan Salmon, director of Johns Hopkins University’s Institute for Vaccine Safety, said at a recent conference. Without a more serious commitment, he said, “our products won’t be as safe as they could be.”

As an HHS vaccine safety official during the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations, Salmon helped write two plans that called for expanded safety work, including examinations of whether the vaccine schedule might be contributing to an increase in allergic diseases.

A little-publicized CDC-led 2022 study suggested that the aluminum salts added to make some pediatric vaccines more effective might cumulatively be linked to an increased incidence of asthma. Salmon thinks it merits further research — to refute or confirm the results. The issue “should have been studied decades ago,” he said.

A Failed Compensation Program

Vaccine advocates and skeptics agree that the government program established to compensate people injured by vaccines or other public health measures during emergencies — the Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program — has miserably failed those with covid vaccine-related injuries. As of June 1, the program has compensated only 39 of nearly 14,000 people who have filed covid vaccine injury claims. Only five have gotten awards of more than $10,000.

The program is far less generous and user-friendly than the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, funded since 1988 by an excise tax on vaccines. It has paid out about 12,000 awards worth a total of $4.8 billion, mostly to care for vaccine-injured children.

People with covid vaccine injuries, however, are stuck in a kind of limbo, often without clear medical options. It’s unfair and “very bad for public confidence in vaccines,” said Amy Pisani, CEO of Vaccinate Your Family, a nonprofit that promotes vaccination, speaking on a panel with Salmon at the April conference.

Kennedy has condemned the injury compensation system for shielding drug companies from lawsuits, but if he wants to help patients he should move covid vaccines into the program, said Renée Gentry, who runs a law clinic for vaccine injuries at George Washington University Law School.

“The longer you hang these people out to dry, you are creating a perfect storm where nobody’s going to want to get vaccinated,” she said.

A Curtailed Vaccine Injury Investigation

In December 2021, the NIH’s Nath emailed Dressen and the other patients suffering from postvaccine problems that he could no longer help them. He told Science magazine that investigating vaccine side effects was a delicate business when public health leaders were urging everyone to get their shots.

“You have to be very careful. You can make the wrong conclusion,” he said. “The implications are huge.”

Nath published an article in 2023 calling for more investigation of vaccine-related neurological conditions. His lab also released preliminary results from its study of Dressen and the other patients, which pointed to helpful treatments. But the paper has not been published in a peer-reviewed journal.

And none of the federal agencies recognized that her condition might be vaccine-related, said Dressen, who received her shot in an AstraZeneca clinical trial. (FDA officials were concerned about the vaccine’s side effect profile, and it was never distributed in the United States.)

Dressen said Nath’s withdrawal left her distraught.

“They reassure everyone there’s a safety net, but every one of those things is a complete failure,” she said. “I didn’t speak out because of my injury. The reason I spoke out is because of what happened after my injury.”

“People are suffering, and we don’t yet understand why or how to help them,” said Harlan Krumholz, a cardiologist who is part of a research project at Yale University led by immunobiologist Akiko Iwasaki that includes hundreds of patients with postvaccine issues. “Worse, many of them have felt ignored or dismissed by the very institutions meant to help and support them.”

The NIH appears not to have funded studies of postvaccine syndrome, whose symptoms mimic those of long covid. Yet genetic studies could help “to determine who might be more susceptible to this condition,” Iwasaki said in an email.

Such research appears ideal for the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment, established to examine rare vaccine reactions. But the network has published nothing on covid vaccines, nor are any trials related to the issue listed on government websites.

German researchers have studied postvaccine syndrome in more depth. Germany’s Paul-Ehrlich-Institut, a sort of FDA for vaccines, reported in December that it had reviewed 919 cases of postvaccine syndrome that were similar to long covid — a rate of about 1 in 100,000 vaccinations. It said causality was hard to establish because of the diverse symptoms reported.

Can Vaccine Safety Move Out of HHS?

In 1999, Chen, the CDC scientist, published an article suggesting that to speed studies and boost public confidence, vaccine safety should be moved to an independent agency, perhaps modeled on the National Transportation Safety Board, which can subpoena records from industry or other government agencies for its crash investigations.

Although HHS did not respond to a query about the idea, vaccine litigant Aaron Siri, who has been a personal attorney to Kennedy, told KFF Health News that Kennedy supported it.

In the meantime, some vaccinologists hope they can persuade Kennedy to spend more money on good vaccine safety research.

While it is “very painful to watch” what Kennedy is doing to HHS vaccine policy, “it would behoove us to find common ground,” Salmon said at the conference. That doesn’t mean “funding terrible studies to confirm hypotheses that some people believe,” he added.

Though that is what many see Kennedy doing. One of his first moves as secretary was to hire David Geier, whose previous publications are considered junk science by many in the field, to conduct a review of vaccine links to autism. Studies around the world have thoroughly debunked such a connection.

Building on an Existing System

When HHS’ Vaccine Safety Datalink was set up in the early 1990s, it was the envy of the world. There are now also good systems in Denmark, England, Israel, and Australia, but the U.S. system has worked pretty well, said Steve Black, who co-directed the Kaiser Permanente Vaccine Study Center from 1985 until 2007.

The Vaccine Safety Datalink was largely responsible for the 1999 removal of a rotavirus vaccine that triggered rare intestinal disorders in babies. And its discovery of a rare but deadly side effect helped keep the AstraZeneca covid vaccine off the U.S. market and led to the removal of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, Black said. It also helped pinpoint myocarditis soon after young men began getting mRNA shots in 2021.

Since 2019, Black has co-directed an ambitious, 30-country consortium called the Global Vaccine Data Network, which enables vaccine safety analyses across massive, diverse populations around the world.

The group was just beginning its study of genetic predispositions to myocarditis when the Trump administration withdrew a $2 million CDC payment, halting the work.

An email from the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE, “asked a bunch of irrelevant questions like, Had we ever been funded by China? Did we have collaborators in Europe?” It ordered the network to cease and desist with no due process or means of appeal, Black said.

Research funded by the grant had progressed to the point of finding seven genetic variants known to be related to cardiac inflammation in people who got myocarditis postvaccination, said Bruce Carleton, the lead investigator, at the University of British Columbia. Work remains, but the data suggests a $6 test could clear vulnerable patients before they are vaccinated, Carleton said.

“Millions got mRNA vaccines. Very few got myocarditis,” Black said. “The public would like to know, ‘Am I at risk?’ Genetics can answer that.”

The CDC has been an honest broker of vaccine safety information, Black added, but if taking the issue out of HHS would improve public confidence, he’s for it.

Vaccines need to be safer, Dressen said, but the idea of banning them doesn’t sit well with her.

“There’s the crowd that wants mRNA vaccines to be pulled off the market, but that’s not going to fix the problem. Vaccines are not going to go away,” she said.

As of June 5, a patient group she leads had provided $1.2 million to 162 people needing medical care for injuries they attributed to vaccination.

Meanwhile, the federal countermeasures program, which doles out covid vaccine injury awards through a trust, has committed $2.6 million for one patient and $370,376 for another. As of June 1, it had granted an additional 37 claimants a grand total of $198,809.92.

KFF Health News is a national newsroom that produces in-depth journalism about health issues and is one of the core operating programs at KFF—an independent source of health policy research, polling, and journalism. Learn more about KFF.

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